Category talk:Biography articles without listas parameter

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Contents 1 What is a listas parameter ? 2 some examples 3 Let's call this thing "listAs" or "ListAs" instead! 4 Who Is Here? 5 BULLETIN 6 Why Are Bands In This Project? 7 Be Very Careful 8 Starting To Drain The Swamp 9 Observations & Questions 10 Categories & Project Pages -- What to do? 11 User Pages (including Sandboxes) 12 Progress

[edit] What is a listas parameter ?

Listas is a parameter found in the coding of the WikiProject Biography box and operates like DEFAULTSORT.

It is a sneaky, hidden and poorly documented template parameter which is one of the primary causes of the weird sorting orders in many categories, especially the maintenance categories created by those boxes and other maintence categories more likely to appear on talk pages.

The problem is that we have a very rudimentary, simplistic sort mechanism. Everything in the sort key is sorted. That includes spaces, punctuation marks, whatever. But it isn't sorted in accordance with anybody's sorting rules. It is simply sorted in accordance with Unicode numbers.

The essential factors that need to be noted, and that need to be included in the instructions to people who will be using "listas" or "DEFAULT" sort include these points:

1. Start the sort key with an uppercase letter to insure case-insensitivity at that level. Ideally, we should probably have totally case-insensitive sorting, but to change that just using sort keys rather than through some software change would be problematic.
2. Do not include ANY alphabetic characters other than the 26 letters of the English alphabet. No diacritics whatsoever.
3. Strip most punctuation from the sort key, especially if it is the first character in an article's name. The comma followed by a space is the conventional separator between surname and given name in people articles; it should be there, even if the name order is the same as in the article name, as in "Chan, Wai Ho" as the sort key for Chan Wai Ho.

See Wikipedia:Categorization of people#Ordering names in a category for more essential pointers. Note that this applies not only to articles about people, but to all articles.

One advantage linkas has over DEFAULTSORT is Category:Biography articles with listas parameter. It would be nice if somebody would help out and use that to start cleaning up the problems I mentioned. You could start by fixing everything that comes after Z. Gene Nygaard 05:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Listas is a parameter found in the coding of the WikiProject Biography box and operates like DEFAULTSORT.

listas: This parameter, which is used in the template with the DEFAULTSORT magic word, is a sortkey for the article talk page, e.g. for Prince George of England, you can instead have listas=George of England, Prince -- so that it will show up in the G's. If no listas is provided, the DEFAULTSORT will be PAGENAME (the article title). Some talk pages have DEFAULTSORT placed on them manually, outside the talk page templates. Later placements of DEFAULTSORT on the talk page (inside or outside templates) will over-ride earlier placements. Category piping (in templates or done manually) will over-ride DEFAULTSORT.

Guroadrunner 03:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort, but that's about as clear as Trinity River mud, amigo. Why would you have a sortkey for the talk page?? Please clarify further; when exactly (and why) should it be used? (I only ask this because the category listing that I've seen on biography articles seems to imply not having one is a flaw, but this doesn't tell me what to do about it.) Thanks! Eaglizard 13:11, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason is that it is helpful for large, unsorted categories of people to be sorted by surname. This applies as much to talk pages as to the actual article. For example, Category:Science and academia work group articles. Hopefully the rewritten documentation at Template:WPBiography will make this clearer now. Carcharoth 21:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think that I kind of understand what it is now--but how does one use it? I get that it goes in the box on the talk page, but beyond that I don't know what to do. Could an example of usage maybe be provided? Also, just to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly, this is mostly for royalty and others who shouldn't be sorted by surname, right? 74.140.196.72 11:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It is exactly equivalent to DEFAULTSORT on the article page. It is more important to put a DEFAULTSORT value on the article page for all biographical articles, so that they sort correctly in their categories. This saves having to put the pipe-sort value into the category tag. The listas on the talk page is convenient to keep things sorted correctly in the assessment and maintenance categories, but in the long run the need is to standardise. Some articles have listas on their talk page, but no DEFAULTSORT, and vice-versa. The advantage of listas is that the category can be used to see which talk pages lack listas (it is difficult to do this for articles to find out which ones lack DEFAULTSORT). When the state is reached where listas and DEFAULTSORT are are both the same on any particular article, then then "lacks listas" category will effectively be a "lacks DEFAULTSORT" category. Essentially, this is a kludgy workaround, as despite several requests, no-one seems to want to make the changes needed to track usage of DEFAULTSORT. Carcharoth 12:03, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

That makes much more sense now. Thanks greatly for your explanation! 74.140.196.72 00:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Oy Vey. It's a cure without a disease. Oy Vey.RabbiVelocicaptor15 16:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Do I have this right?

• Changes need to be made to track the usage of DEFAULTSORT.
• Those who can make the changes do not see a need to track the usage of DEFAULTSORT.
• A new level of arcana has been added so that a undefined but small group of editors can track the usage of DEFAULTSORT.

JimCubb 05:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so where do I find a category for all the articles which "have listas" so that I can find all those where people have incorrectly used accented letters and the like in the "listas"? Gene Nygaard 12:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind. I found it. Gene Nygaard 12:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

How about something like Category:Biography articles without listas parameter for DEFAULTSORT? If we're "supposed" to bu using DEFAULTSORT instead of listas, we could certainly use a pair of tracking categories.  — AnnaKucsma  Speak! 14:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] some examples

Could you add some examples - or brief usage either at the start of this page or on the template, I was just quickly popping here to see how to add it, just needed the basics... Leevanjackson (talk) 12:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Let's call this thing "listAs" or "ListAs" instead!

Just because this sounds so Spanish "las listas" ;) Gracias! ;p -andy 92.228.0.141 (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who Is Here?

Please register below with your user name, method of working, special expertise, time zone and comments as you feel are appropriate. The last three will become important as we get closer to the end.

• JimCubb
  • Manual - constructing values from the DEFAULTSORT, the relevant naming conventions articles, usage in the article and reliable sources in the article.
  • None in particular although I probably know more about the naming conventions of the systems who have articles than I should.
  • UTC-7
  • I also do minor fixes that I notice need to be done such as put the DEFAULTSORT above the categories on the article page, add the living value if it is missing, verify stubs that are automatically detected, and put WPBS if there are more than two project banners on the page.
• Mikaey
  • Mostly automated. My expertise is probably in programming, so I wield ListasBot and DefaultsortBot as my servants. Not a whole lot of expertise in any particular naming convention.
  • CST
  • My modus operandi is to figure out how to automate as much of the work as possible, and leave as little as possible for the human editors...hence the bots.

[edit] BULLETIN

As of a few seconds ago the backlog dropped below 100,000 — a mere shadow of its former self.

Rejoice!

All hail Listasbot who did most of the work.

JimCubb (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Why Are Bands In This Project?

Look at how many of the members of this category are Bands or other Musical Ensembles. Why are they even in the purview of the project?

Be that as it may, since some one feels or felt strongly enough about the ListAs parameter to form a page that is populated by its absence, I will start at the top and work my way to the end, fixing the ones that are obvious. I will also put the DEFAULTSORT on the main page if it is missing.

Is anyone else working on this? JimCubb (talk) 21:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Be Very Careful

I am working on Category:Pages with DEFAULTSORT conflicts. The conflicts are mainly of two types.

1. A page is covered by two projects whose templates use the listas parameter, i.e., each template sets the sort criterion for the page. One has a completed listas parameter and the other does not.
2. Some one (or a bot) put a DEFAULTSORT after all the templates, and it conflicts with any of the listas values.
   

If an editor is working on either the pages with the listas parameter or the pages without the listas parameter, great care needs to be taken to insure that all the project templates have the same value for the listas parameter (Some templates do not use it but I have not found one yet that complains if it is there.) and delete any DEFAULTSORT line on the page. (The DEFAULTSORT line should be pasted onto the article page if one is not there but that involves a lot more time even though it will have to be done eventually.)
Isn't this fun!

JimCubb (talk) 00:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Starting To Drain The Swamp

Now that Category:Pages with DEFAULTSORT conflicts is down to 14 trivial pages, sandboxes and java scripts, I am starting to work on these. I have started with the 1023 pages after Z. If anyone else wants to work on this may I suggest that you indicate that here and where you are starting?

I think the most efficient plan of attack is for the first new person to start at the top of the first page, go as far as is possible in a single session and start at the first page the next time the page changes. The next person could work on the third page exclusively. The next person start at the top of the fifth page. After all the ones after Z are done I will start two pages after the highest page number indicated in the list.

Does that make sense?

JimCubb (talk) 18:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the listas and DEFAULTSORT on almost 90 articles today. There are 154 more articles in this category than there were when I began. Editors are creating problems almost twice as fast as I can fix them. Feel free to jump in, anybody!

JimCubb (talk) 23:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I am one of those editors creating problems for you without understanding why. I added the Matthew S. Petersen article with the proper listas, but without DEFAULTSORT. More material was added by myself and others, and minor changes were made here and there, but the DEFAULTSORT is not there, unlike some bio articles I improved rather than started from scratch. If you will fix up the Matthew S. Petersen to have DEFAULTSORT, I will go ahead and fix the other members of the Federal Election Commission and then go on to other agency biographies. I have become a fairly experienced editor, but some techniques, such as this one, is arcane to me. I can at least stop adding to the problem, if I can understand it, and correct some of the articles I did not do with precision in this way. --DThomsen8 (talk) 12:15, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually you were creating a false positive that would probably never have been caught. I have been told that it is impossible to track articles that lack a DEFAULTSORT value. This is why the listas parameter is tracked.

The editors who are creating problem are the ones who are creating articles and omitting any sort value whether on the article or on the talk page. The good news is that no one has complained that their wonderful article is listed incorrectly in the category that the editor created for it.

That is what the DEFAULTSORT value and listas parameter do. Without a DEFAULTSORT value Matthew S. Petersen would appear under M rather than P in the Category:Federal Election Commission. (It is correct and, unlike many I have seen, in the right place.) Likewise, without the listas parameter Talk:Matthew S. Petersen would appear in the wrong place in Category:Biography articles of living people and any other category where it is assigned by a project banner.

Now you know almost all you need to know about DEFAULTSORT and listas. The only other bit of arcana that may or may not be useful to you is that the LIFETIME template includes a sort value that can replace the DEFAULTSORT value. The folks who have developed and worked on LIFETIME really think it is necessary but I do not think that a way has been developed to locate pages where it has or has not been used.

Thank you for your response and cooperation. Keep creating articles of the caliber of Matthew S. Petersen. It was pleasant to read and a very welcome change from the articles I normally see.

JimCubb (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the flattery on Matthew S. Peterson. I did four new articles on members of the Federal Election Commission, starting out in a sandbox, and after that updates to two existing articles lacking in the infoboxes and other information of the other four. Donald F. McGahn II is not as good as the others, because he has no official biography. At least one of these articles has LIFETIME rather than DEFAULTSORT. Are they compatible? Beyond that, if the articles are well done, should they have a higher rating than class=C, which I assigned to them (up from Stub to start), but I was modest about rating my own work, howbeit with some assistance from others.

You are welcome. As for the rating, I really do not know. There may be a checklist at WP Biog. I know WP Mil Hist has one. WP Biog is also a good place to get a reviewer if you want one.

As far as I know the LIFETIME sort value works just as well as the DEFAULTSORT.

Happy Editing!

JimCubb (talk) 21:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Observations & Questions

After over 2,000 edits resolving DEFAULTSORT conflicts and adding listas parameters I have observed some difficulties with assigning the listas parameter and specifically with the use of a bot to assign the listas parameter.

• There are two main ways to convert "Æ" and one rarely used way. Some editors merely break it apart so that Ælfflæd of Mercia becomes Aelfflæd of Mercia. Some editors go for what I believe was customary for many years, convert it to "E", so that Ælfric II becomes Elfric. (It should have been Elfric 02 and now is.) Some editors, so few that I cannot find an example right now, convert it to "A".

• A bot or AWB can be useful in assigning the listas parameter. It can also be disasterous. The first examples of the latter are the 15 Egyptian pharaohs named "Ptolemy". All of them have an epithet, Ptolemy I Soter, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, etc. Some editor used a mechanical device to go through these so that the first two were made to list as "Soter, Ptolemy I" and "Philadelphus, Ptolemy II".

• A Icelandic names confuse everyone even Icelandic editors. Pipes are used on the article page for each of the categories. For general categories the patronym is treated as a family name but for Iceland-specific categories the guideline is followed. For example, Ásgeir Ásgeirsson has Category:1972 deaths|Asgeirsson. Asgeir but Category:Prime Ministers of Iceland|Asgeir Asgeirsson.

I don't know if there are answers to these dilemmas.

• It would be nice to have a single universal conversion for "Æ" but I do not think it is going to happen and, even if it were to happen, changing the erroneous conversions would be a horrendous task.
• There will always be editors who will try to automate a tedious task and there will always be editors who will be unable to conceive the problems that such automation can cause.
• Iceland is not going to change its naming convention.

This is only a mild alert to the little difficulties that I have encountered and not inteded to be critical.

If anyone reads this, could something be done to encourage editors to work on this category? It is growing despite the efforts of a very few of us to correct the problem.

JimCubb (talk) 19:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Small trivia:The situation right now is: 375,812 articles without listas and 247,628 with. -- Magioladitis (talk) 21:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

So what do I do with all the "Æ" articles? I don't want to skip them.

Not really. Right now we have 374,619 without and 248,855 with. The ranks of the unrighteous have been slightly depleted. It is still a 60-40 split but the good guys are gaining. I don't expect the good guys to take the lead in my lifetime.

JimCubb (talk) 03:50, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Greetings, two thousand edits is quite a bit, and changing 248 thousand articles would require that amount of edits. Impressive.--Kiyarrlls-talk 03:10, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it is the larger number that needs to be reduced. Right now it is 368,520. Some bots are doing some very good work. However, Kiyarrlls-, if you feel tempted to join in the fray, you are encouraged to yield to the temptation.

JimCubb (talk) 00:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

There are no items after the Zs. All names that began with a letter that is not in the English alphabet has a value for the listas parameter. I hope it is the correct one.

There are only 364,972 articles yet to repair.

JimCubb (talk) 23:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Categories & Project Pages -- What to do?

I propose that DEFAULTSORT and listas be the PAGENAME so that they will not appear in this category. What say all of you?

JimCubb (talk) 03:49, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] User Pages (including Sandboxes)

Delete the banner or "tl" the banner?

Project banners should never appear on user pages or user subpages, right?

JimCubb (talk) 04:54, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Not unless you're someone like me, and you're testing out a plugin for AWB that you wrote... Matt (talk) 09:50, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Granted but there will have to be a way to get those pages excluded once the important items are resolved.

JimCubb (talk) 19:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Generally there would be code in the template to prevent this stuff from categorising userpages. Rich Farmbrough, 14:03 14 March 2009 (UTC).

I thought that the nocat tag would do that but I was told elsewhere that it will not.

JimCubb (talk) 23:34, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Progress

While I was off worrying about other categories the values aftrer "Z" became populated. I have just finished "Æ" and have done almost all the rest. All that remain are the invalid value that begin with "É". There are 56 of them and I hope to finish them by the end of the week. The values after "Z: will not repopulate. When other letters are emptied please name them here and I will watch them as well. (My schedule is to check for new DEFAULTSORT conflicts and resolve the ones that are not trivial, check for new "importance" parameters that should be "priority" then come here.)

Other editors and their bots are doing much better than I can at taking care of the pages here but I can take care of the alligators that are inadvertantly thrown in. I may start to look for incorrect values in the pages with the listas parameter. (I worked on the "X" entries in the pages without the living parameter yesterday. All of the Chinese generals were listed incorrectly.)

Isn't this fun!

JimCubb (talk) 22:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

All the pages after "Z" have been fixed. I intend to monitor that section and will attend to any new pages. I will work on "Q" next and "X" after that. I look forward to the day when this category is empty, all the wonderful editors who have worked so hard to clean up this category have moved on and I can drop in once or twice a day to fix any pages.

JimCubb (talk) 05:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)