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Talk:Joseph Stalin

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Joseph Stalin is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
July 18, 2004 Featured article candidate Not promoted
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Contents


[edit] Archives, POV's and Edits

Some of the edits made today (Dec. 7) were fantastic strides toward a NPOV. Valeofruin (talk) 07:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Alrght I buckled down and redid the intro at least. It will of course be edited over time and I'm sure all views will be expressed sooner rather then later.

I also noted some people claiming that the Soviet Archives 'Prove' several 'Million' died in Gulags. I would like to point out that similar reports exist supporting the pro Stain side of the story as well

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=28616

The reality is according to that article, that there exists a report in excess of 9000 pages, available in Russian text only supporting the Thesis that only 425,000 died in the Soviet Gulags, that bases 100% of it's conclusions on Soviet Archives.

Therefore the question of the Soviet Penal system, like that of the famines, and the Purges, STILL lies in dispute, and you can't exactly continue to present 1 side without doing some 'Writing as the enemy' and lending a shred of credibility to the other on the basis that "This side is true, that ones a lie."

In addition I would like to address the other claim on the talk page that seems to go something like, "People don't do this for Hitler, why should Stalin be any different?"

I would like to clarify that if I had in fact read 'The Holocaust Lie' or some such book, and if i felt i had a firm enough grasp on Holocaust denial to make a claim against the Hitler article, there would undoubtably be a dispute tag there as well.

P.S. List or not Webbed toes is off topic, and perhaps coincides with the neutrality dispute. It's a random fact, much like TRIVIA, that seems to imply that Stalin is in fact a sea creature as opposed to a perfectly normal human being of biographical and historical significance. It doesnt NEED to be there, it doesn't contribute anything to the broader scheme of the article, it's just a 'fun fact', therefore I don't feel its deletion is Vandalism.

Valeofruin (talk) 16:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Small Error

Not sure where and how to place this correctly but there is a factual error:

"Bearing the brunt of the Nazis' attacks, the Soviet Union under Stalin made the largest and most decisive contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany during World War II (1939–1945)"

This should read (1941-45). Until this date, the Soviets were allied with the Nazis. kentish 28 Oct 08

[edit] Err Hang on...

Why on earth does wikipedia insist on the sacred 'non pov' approch for people like Stalin? The sad dedication to 'pillars of wikpedia' which is now a cult for some complete losers, means that it is now against 'policy' to critisise mass murderers- great job guys

Stalin was not a "mass murderer". Get off the internet now before you make too much a fool out of yourself Valeofruin (talk) 23:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Stalin was not a mass murderer- barnstar for the most retarded statement ive ever heard- i guess all those guys in the Gulags just died of old age did they? I guess the militry purges were just fun and games? The massacre of Cossacks at Lienz? You are a seriously misinformed little man —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.219.153.207 (talk) 15:27, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Depends on how you choose to view Stalin. You can believe that Stalin was simply the only one in power and he was a sadistic lunatic who enjoyed murdering people for no reason OR you can believe that USSR was in a period of turmoil, those individuals were threats and they were executed in order to keep the country in balance. I'm curious how you think the Great Purge was targeted, seeing as how they weren't really random murders...

Unfortunately it becomes clear that the NPOV tag will never be removed, a census will never be met, as the pro-NPOV and the "Death to Stalin!" types will never agree to let the others article go unchallenged.

Perhaps the proper way to solve this would be to have a fair wikiveteren rewrite the article, after reading the pro-Stalinist material, doing things like rewording such words as 'Dictator', and using the NPOV tactic of writing as the enemy, then of course closing this article once and for all.

I mean would it really be so difficult to replace a word like dictator with:

head of state  –noun the person who holds the highest position in a national government: a meeting of heads of state.

??? This article wouldnt be so controversial if you would just do some writing as the enemy, and some really simple re-wording/phrasing. Valeofruin (talk) 07:22, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Why would we want to replace the word 'dictator'? That is exactly what he was- I agree that we should present the facts and let them do the talking, but if we follow this absurd nopv idea as gospel then the article would not imply that stalinist atrocities were in any way wrong. It has to be made clear that Stalin, and his actions, are today condemned as brutal and opressive. PS Maybe you would like to change the page on genocide as it seems to be a bit to 'anti', im sure your keen to get a neutral non condeming tone (heavy sarcasm). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.219.153.207 (talk) 19:01, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

"It has to be made clear that Stalin, and his actions, are today in the Western countries condemned as brutal and opressive by the liberals." - No, there are plenty of people who disagree with this, and acknowledge Stalin as one of the greatest persons within the communist movement.90.221.232.154 (talk) 19:05, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Right, so because some group of ill informed, nostalgic, old communist hard liners liked the days of state controlled murder and supression that makes it ok. Those who see Stalin as "a God" aspire to achive his level of bloody control over there own countries. There are plenty of people who agree with the sentiment of the Horst Wessel song in the world, but that does not mean that wikipedia should give equel treatment to such views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.219.153.207 (talk) 20:16, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not neutral

This article is too anticommunist and “anti-Stalin,” I think we need a more neutral point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kubanik (talk • contribs) 12:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I believe a "Neutrality is disputed" banner is heavily warranted by this article sheer bias against Stalin.Metallurgist (talk) 02:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The Neutrality dispute is purely POV, is it disputed that Stalin ordered atrocities such as Katyn? Its like saying that theres bias against Hitler or Mao. Bugguyak (talk) 21:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't mean to defend the actions of any of those men, but isn't the fact that they were tyrants makes it actually more likely that there will be bias in what should be a factual article? 129.241.138.157 (talk) 18:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

religious talk is POV, your statement about satan does not belong here.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 02:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course it POV thats the point of the above discussion, but I removed it and replaced it with a similar analogous personality. Bugguyak (talk) 13:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

i have not even stated whether i support the PROC or ROC yet you jump to conclusions. comparing satan to a human being is totally wrong, considering the fact that we do not know satan's personality, whether he is evil, or just the absence of good, just as darkness is the abcense of light, and coldness the absence of heat.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

hitler was a christian, and stalin studying to become a priest, i think they learned alot of mass murder and genocide from the bible, as it says god supported the mass murder of innocents, and entire races in the old testament......ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

- Hitler was NOT a Christian; he banned Christianty and persecuted the Church. Kentish 28 Oct 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.241.6 (talk) 07:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

and it is also clear that the killings, mass murder, and genocide that stalin, hitler, and god ordered in the old testament of the bible, were deliberate and intentional, while all deaths resulting from mao were a result of failed economic policy.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This article, like most on controversial issues in Wikipedia, is somewhat of a disgrace. Rather than exhibiting a NPOV, it exhibits a POV which oscillates, often sentence by sentence between pro and anti-Stalinist sentiments. For an example of what an encyclopedic entry on Stalin should look like, read the entry in Britannica (or, if you lack access to that, you can search Google for an Encarta entry on Stalin). In the future, I will be avoiding reading Wikipedia articles on dictators (especially those whom ruled countries which still look up to such people: you don't see "controversial" tags on the Wikipedia entry on Hitler, for instance). BFBbrown (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


OK guys, apparently its too difficult for some people to recognize a NEUTRAL article,so for this reason ive taken the liberty of rewording the entire first section, and posting a draft here: http://pastebin.ca/1213777

I can cite relatively biased sources to show the opinions of "supporters of stalin", for those that will call that point out, but i dont think its nessecary considering people have already psoted them on this talk page.

Really its not that hard to make an article unbiased, you can still mention all the points AGANST stalin that you want, all we ask is that you take into consideration the other side of the story, and at least allow some degree of credibility to the Stalinist support. The article mentions extremely biased facts and figures, and uses incriminating words like "Regime" or "Dictator", and gives opinions of 1 specific group of "historians", without even mentioning, yet alone lending a degree of credibility to another more, "Stalin Friendly" camp.

Just re word the article a bit, water down some of the anti stalin opinions, and stop setting figures such as "millions dead" in stone, when they cant be proven, and anyone who tries can be rebutted with equally sufficient evidence.

Im not asking you make a hero of stalin, or even attempt to remove his "villian" status, just tone down the stalin hate just mabe 1 or 2 notches, and leave some food for thought.Valeofruin (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

If anything, this article has a pro-Stalin bias. Compare with Hitler where the number of deaths he was responsible for is stated clearly in the lead (whereas here it's buried deep in the text). Being 'neutral' does not mean ignoring facts which some find uncomfortable or giving equal weight to fringe views. The controversy on the death toll you refer to is one between killing 10 million or 20 million people. Either way the phrase "millions dead" is still appropriate. Similarly the words "regime" and "dictator" are accurate descriptions, accepted by all but a minority of scholars. Seriously, there is a "Hitler Friendly" camp out there but that does not mean that the Wiki article on Hitler needs to present their "side" of the story. The same applies here.radek (talk) 17:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Now correct me if im wrong, but last i checked neutrality did in fact require one to take into account all sides of the story.

Suggesting that somehow ignoring the arguements presented by one party is neutrality is simply ignorant. No offense, but mabe you could use a dose of neutrality yourself.

Also the arguement isnt between 10 and 20 million, the arguement is that you cant prove that millions died under Stalin, noone can. The maximum number of deaths possible is disputed between 10 and 20 million perhaps, but the dispute here, make no mistake is whether or not Stalin even killed half a million, or if he even killed anyone at all!

In addition Regime, and Dictator are accepted by all but a minority of scholars, this is true, however the majority of scholars all stand on the same side of this issue, they always have and always will, the other side so happends to be the minority, its not as though theres been any compromise between parties to draw this conclusion. And to put your suspiscion to rest, i would present the same case if the Hitler article came into question.

The reality is the Wiki community picked 1 side of this issue to stand on, the side of the majority, and COMPLETELY shut out the voice of the minority. Thats not neutrality, its just wrong. Valeofruin (talk) 03:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that Stalin was and remains the biggest mass murderer of the 20th Century. That marks him out as one of the most evil characters in history. And thats being neutral. Kentish 28 Oct 08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.26.241.6 (talk) 07:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

If you look through the Hopelessly POV section you will find the evidences that contradict to your statement.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

No Stalin was a good guy- I used to muck out his dacha and he was very nice to old ladies and hamsters and rarely killed anyone at all, unless they happened to look at him in a funny way. I think wikipedia needs definitely in order to maintain credibility to give ample space to the views of complete crackpots who view Dzugashvili as benign Uncle Joe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.148.55.50 (talk) 14:19, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to challenge the assertion above that Hitler was not a Christian. Here are a few quotations:

On hearing of the declaration of the First World War: ‘I sank down on my knees and thanked Heaven out of the fullness of my heart for the favour of having been permitted to live in such a time.’ (Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf)

‘I know Herr Hitler very well personally and am quite close to him. He is an unusually honourable character, full of profound kindness, is religious, a good Catholic. ’ (Rudolph Hess, letter to Prime Minister of Bavaria, 1920)

‘We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.’ (Adolf Hitler, speech in Berlin, 1933)

‘I shall remain a Catholic for ever. ’ (Adolf Hitler, to his adjutant, General Gerhard Engel, 1941)

Bobshalogadog (talk) 18:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Documentable "Estimates of the Scale of Stalinist Repression"

"Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-war Years:A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence"

This contains an extensive and detailed overview of the soviet prison system and its populations, and of course what % of whichever group was imprisoned.

Link: http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/AHR/AHR.html

Its one thing to quote paid western writers and their fantastical lies, its another to actually look at Soviet archives and see, as clear as whats printed, the numbers and/or information regarding these disputed subjects...

I strongly urge anyone with an interested in this subject or the article to take the time and read the information I've linked to, it is very well referenced and based on Soviet sources.

(24.64.86.167 (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)) Why complain about neutrality when you could fix it...?

Because it just gets rolled back.

[edit] Stalin in the arts

The paragraph is about texts, what about images and movies?Xx236 (talk) 10:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A completely biased article

This article is completely biased. It is just a a bullshit rather than an encyclopedic article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celikbilge (talk • contribs) 20:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bad Grammar

Under the family section: 'this (as well as...) were' should be replaced by 'this (as well as...) was'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew schaug (talk • contribs) 10:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


"Bad Grammar" is actually grammatically incorrect. It should be Poor Grammar.

[edit] Removing the dispute tag

Frankly, without anyone caring to discuss why they feel the article is "bullshit" or "anti-Stalin," I'm inclined to remove the dispute tag.  RGTraynor  17:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm not. We all know Stalin wasn't a bright and shiny happy person, but the emphasis on his crimes is overwhelming the rest of the content about his life. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 20:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem with this article is that parts of it, including the intro, read like a 1950s New York Times article. There is definitely a point of view present, and that is of a western view. The fact of the matter is that in parts of the world, particularly Russia, Stalin is remembered as a man who had many great accomplishments along with the atrocities. He is not viewed as a menace and a mass murderer, he's viewed as a strong, iron fisted leader who transformed a poor peasant nation into a superpower in a relatively short period of time and liberated Europe from the Nazis. His policies, while cruel, were necessary for the future of the great soviet empire. In other words the ends justified the means, in a non-western point of view, something that most people in the west can't seem to come to grips with after living a lifetime around anti-communist "evil empire" propaganda. His accomplishments should be given equal weight, and his wrong doings shouldn't be exaggerated. One example, the section "Number of victims" seems completely unnecessary. A section based entirely on people speculating on how many people died under Stalin's rule is ridiculously POV. It could easily be summed up in one or two sentences citing the minimum and maximum, and the most common average. Sceneshock (talk) 02:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
And you can add the Holodomor section to that list of POV portions (though it's already tagged). The idea that it was an engineered famine to wipe out the Ukrainian people is a highly contested claim, it certainly shouldn't be the first sentence of the subject as if that is most accepted scholarly view. I suggest you (anyone reading this actually) reads the holodomor article thoroughly to get a good idea of what to put in that section, because it is quite a controversial subject, yet here we are saying "Stalin did it because Stalin is evil" in his very own biography.
One must wonder about that. Stalin wanted more than anything else to industrialize and further develop the Soviet Union. Why on Earth would he attempt to destroy the so called "bread basket" of the nation in the midst of this transformation? Sceneshock (talk) 03:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, a question that deserves a serious answer. What was he thinking? Fred Talk 23:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Like any complex historical event, it resists simple explanation. Our article on collectivization in the USSR has some background. For the most part, the roots of the Holodomor are thought to lie in the Party's desire to collectivize agriculture, which met with active and passive resistance from the peasantry, resulting in harsh food requisitions and other reprisals by the Bolsheviks against the "bread basket" of the USSR. In this sense, the motivation fits quite snugly with Stalin's desire to industrialize and further develop the Soviet Union, as collectivization was the ends which supposedly justified the means. MastCell Talk 23:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
In this article, we're given one paragraph in the Holodomor section, and that one paragraph heavily focuses on and seems to favor the genocide theory, displaying it as if it's the most domonant and widely accepted theory, while giving no mention to other more widely accepted theories. Put yourself in the position of someone who has never heard of Holodomor before. You get to that section, and the first thing you read is "The Holodomor famine is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide". Then it goes on not to inform the reader of any facts about the famine, but whether or not it's considered a genocide. So that's it, your lesson on Stalin and the holodomor. How..informative? Balanced? Maybe I'm just "clueless" as another editor so maturely suggested, but that doesn't sound very fair or balanced to me, to suggest something highly contested like that and not actually elaborate on the issue. Instead of saying there is a theory that some people believe and some don't, why not give brief mention of the most widely accepted theories in a neutral and balanced mannr (ie. why they do or don't consider it a genocide), and let the readers decide for themselves? Sceneshock (talk) 00:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
It's rather curious that someone removed the tag because there was "no discussion in a month", but failed to actually make a reply and discuss any of the points brought up by various users on the discussion page. How can we have discussion if the opposing side refuses to discuss? Sceneshock (talk) 23:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, perhaps because you're echoing the same pro-Stalinist points that we've been subject to by a long line of sockpuppets and single-purpose accounts on this page? "His policies, while cruel, were necessary for the future of the great soviet empire" - you sound exactly like Jacob Peters (talk · contribs), in fact. And you're a brand-new account. What do you expect us to think? The chance is exactly zero that the article will be rewritten to the pro-Soviet POV. If you have anything else to suggest, please do, otherwise the tag will go again. - Merzbow (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not pro-Stalinist. However I do think the pro-Stalinist point of view deserves fair mention considering how widespread it is. That's what NPOV is, all popular point of views should be expressed fairly. The article doesn't need to be re-written, but it needs to be renovated quite badly and the POV tag shouldn't be removed until both sides are satisfied. And I'm not a sock of anybody, you can get an admin to check if you want, but I really don't appreciate the blind and baseless accusations. Sceneshock (talk) 00:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
"That's what NPOV is, all popular point of views" - hmm, no, this is what NPOV says: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." We precisely do not write history articles based on "popular point of views", we base them on what academics say. If you have changes to suggest backed by cites from Professors of History, please list them here. - Merzbow (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
You just quoted NPOV for me, unless you're suggesting that there are no reliable sources anywhere in the world that are pro-Stalin (or at the very least, not anti-Stalin) then your argument is moot. Sceneshock (talk) 00:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Maybe there are, but you as of yet have not presented any. - Merzbow (talk) 01:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't matter if I personally supply links. They exist, and they aren't presented in this article, therefore the POV tag will stay until the article is neutral and presents all relevant points of view. And there are also dozens of other POV issues that I've already pointed out. Sceneshock (talk) 22:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
So you assert the existence of reliable pro-Stalinist material, but feel no need to actually prove the existence of such. Good luck with that. - Merzbow (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't need to prove their existence any more than I need to prove the existence of the sun. The point is that this article is a POV mess, and that's not even entirely related to having pro-Stalin sources. Stop removing the tag, if this article were neutral you wouldn't have a ton of people complaining that it's not. Sceneshock (talk) 23:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
No. Take this advice from someone who actually added a POV tag to a section of this article: you present a credible argument, based on sources, as to which part of this article is slanted in any way. For example, if there are academic views that are not being represented, we will have to accept that the article is unbalanced. Your point about how he is remembered is different - I am perfectly willing to include a few citations on the cult of nostalgia for him in certain sections of the former USSR, particularly in Georgia. But that has nothing to do with NPOV. --Relata refero (disp.) 09:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to talk about the "good" that Stalin accomplished for the benefit of Russia, then we also need to point out that Hitler restored a sense of German nationalization, sought to correct the absurd and harsh provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, and made the trains run on time.

John Paul Parks (talk) 12:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

No, this is not the Hitler article. Stalin's good and bad decisions are both appropriate for elucidation in this article without having to give equal time to other world leaders.

[edit] Tell us about Stalin

Give us helpful information about him not everyting he did wrong.Goblyglook (talk) 00:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to. Please check out the links I'll post.

The complete works of J.V. Stalin http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/Index.html

Stalin and the struggle for democratic reform, the *extremely* well referenced and indepth look at Stalin's struggle and failure to enforce democratic processes on the Soviet Union. http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

What about Stalin? In defence of Joseph Stalin (detailing the different aspects of Stalin and his contributions to Soviet society - doubled life expectancy, universal education and healthcare for example. http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/stalin.html

A look at Stalin, and the people who testify to his modesty and simple lifestyle. Basically a debunking of the cult of personality myth. http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/StalinBB.htm

The book titled "Another view of Stalin" again, extremely well referenced. http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

A personal account of one man's feelings towards Stalin, very interesting http://azeri.org/Azeri/az_latin/latin_articles/latin_text/latin_73/eng_73/73_stalin_cult.html

Stalin - An emerging view (note the references at the bottom) http://www.visualstatistics.net/Catastrophe/Golden%20Years/Golden%20Years.htm

An extremely interesting transcript of Stalin and Sergei Eisenstein on the Film Ivan the Terrible http://revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv3n2/ivant.htm

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/110.5/goldman.html http://www.visualstatistics.net/Catastrophe/Stalin%20Biography/Stalin's%20Biography.htm

Chairman Mao on Joseph Stalin's place in history http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-7/mswv7_467.htm

Lies concerning the history of the USSR http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/lies/lies.html

Enver Hoxha's recount of his meetings with Stalin http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/intro.htm


I sincerely hope that the people interested in the validity and balance of the article will look carefully at the links provided, the absurd suggestions about Stalin 'killing' 'as many as' '50million people' and soforth are beyond laughable. USSR's population was about 170million in the mid 30s considering the break-neck pace of industrialization, shortage of labour, etc the ideas about so-called death tolls are unrealistic at best.

When a nation goes from plowing the fields with it's bare hands to increasing the total size of their industrial base by 450% in under 5 years, from fighting with swords and rifles to mass producing more then 100,000 artillery, 75,000 anti-air units, and more then 170,000 tanks and armoured fighting vehicals while the western half of the nation has already been burned to the ground twice over, and I couldn't even begin to note the social aspect of it, the universities the healthcare, mass literacy efforts...you really need to take a closer look at the reasons beyond these and many other monumental achievements - Stalin is a good place to start. ;)

(24.64.86.167 (talk) 03:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC))


Almost all the links/sources provided above come from doctrinaire Marxist and Stalin-apologist sources, of extremely dubious academic rigour or standing. I cannot see how arguing that points of view that one views as ideologically biased are rationally countered by sources that make little or no pretense of objectivity and are driven by their own inflexible ideological standpoint. That is neither rational nor constructive. The ongoing analysis of the newly opened documents from the Soviet Archives by professional historians is providing the opportunity for far less guesswork and supposition than in the past, and respected works that draw on these should be the benchmark to draw from. The picture that is emerging of Stalin (and Soviet society in the period generally) is far more complex than any ahistorical wishfulfilment of the politically engaged of either extreme, the human consequences no less shocking. Lewvalton (talk) 17:07, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


How unbiased. So the sources from the American, and anti-stalinist sources are credible and rational, while soviet and stalinist so-called 'apologists' are untrustworthy? I totally disagree on the fact that the sources above are not to be used. I don't see any reason that Marxist and Stalinist works shouldn't be used. Turtlesoviet (talk) 07:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)