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Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing

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WikiProject Thoroughbred racing
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Thoroughbred racing, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Thoroughbred racing on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.



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[edit] New(ish) article

Chester (horse) appears to fall within this project's scope, so I thought I'd pass along the news of the article's creation. --Sturm 23:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Horse Farm Infobox

Would someone like to take a shot at creating an Infobox for horse farms? Handicapper (talk) 14:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] British jump racing Champion Jockey

I spent some time upgrading this list today, putting the information into a table which can be sorted in a variety of ways. I'd strongly recommend it be moved to a more appropriate title: perhaps List of British National Hunt racing's Champion Jockeys would work? It would be great to get some feedback, plus any suggestions for improvement. The biggest problem is finding reliable references. Any ideas? MeegsC | Talk 22:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

How about reversing the initial date order so that the most recent winner appears at the top of the table? - Cuddy Wifter (talk) 23:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
As the default, you mean? MeegsC | Talk 10:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I think the current Champion Jockey is more likely to be of interest to enquirers, and should appear at the top of the list, without having to go to the bottom of the page to find this information. Also, when next years winner is added it appears when the page initially opens. Just my 2 cents worth. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 23:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Good point! I'll work on reversing it. MeegsC | Talk 09:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Y Done. Any other suggestions? MeegsC | Talk 10:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cantering and galloping leads

On Lead (leg) there is a content dispute re the relative merits of transverse and rotatory leads. Eg, cantering disunited and round gallop. See Talk:Lead (leg). --Una Smith (talk) 15:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism with Blood-Horse magazine List of the Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century

Can someone correct the vandalism inflicted upon the Blood-Horse magazine List of the Top 100 U.S. Racehorses of the 20th Century entry? Furthermore block and/or ban the user of said changes? I'm not sure if the person understood that the list came from a publication or just wanted to voice their idiotic view of horse racing's leaders. --Kellsboro Jack (talk) 19:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Once again the fans of Secretariat are at it again with vandalzing this list. Clearly it is intentional - so how does someone get blocked from making edits with Wikipedia? --Kellsboro Jack (talk) 19:31, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I undid the changes and dropped the user a warning with the WP:VANDALISM template.imars (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The anonymous user has returned to the talk page after I suggested a compromise in the article. We quoted Bill Nack's displeasure with the survey. Does anyone have a source for the quote?imars (talk) 06:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thoroughbred

Wikipedia:WikiProject Equine has just put up Thoroughbred as a GA nomination. Thought we'd let ya'll know. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oddity in the article for Byerley Turk

In paragraph three of this aticle, referring to the scaricity of direct male line progengy of this horse, there is a statement that "he also bred the Byerley Turk mare, founder of Thorougbred family 1 ... " I presume this means that he sired this foundation mare, but I was reluctant to change the wording in the original article, not being sufficiently sure of my horse breeder's vocabulary. Would someone please fix this this, and then delete this post. 161.184.44.108 (talk) 17:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox for jockeys

Horses have them, as do competitors from other sports, why not jockeys? Anyone fancy having a crack at it? Grunners (talk) 16:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

We already have Template:Horseracing personalities infobox. Check out these examples: Eddie Arcaro, Walter Swinburn and Scobie Breasley. - Cuddy Wifter (talk) 22:52, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
That's the sort of thing. We've a long way to go to get them on every jockey's page though! Grunners (talk) 22:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest we make this an important 'to-do' task? 82.20.251.131 (talk) 14:04, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inconsistency with DOD for 1985 Kentucky Derby winner, Spend a Buck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spend_A_Buck

Paragraph one lists DOD as November 24, 2002: "Spend A Buck (born 1982 in western Kentucky, died November 24, 2002 in Brazil) was an American thoroughbred race horse."


Last Paragraph lists DOD as November 24, 2000: "Spend A Buck had a very successful post-racing career standing stud, [2] siring 27 stakes winners with earnings of over $16 million. He died on November 24, 2000 at Haras Bage do Sul in Brazil, following an anaphylactic reaction to penicillin."

Thanks for pointing out the "typo". It's now fixed. - Cuddy Wifter (talk) 07:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jockey article in need of NPOV editing

If someone is interested in jockeys there's an article that needs help: Michael Walker (jockey). The current article is very POV and uses un-encyclopedic language. It appears to be all original research and no sources are listed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New articles on Thoroughbred racing

I have noticed that a number of WikiProjects are using the bot User:AlexNewArtBot to identify possible new articles which are relevent to their particular project; see for example Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ships/New_articles. Do you think there is merit in doing something similar for Thoroughbred racing, and are there any members of this project with the necessary skills to volunteer to compile a rules set and set up a subpage for new Thoroughbred racing articles? - Cuddy Wifter (talk) 07:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thoroughbred

Is up at WP:FAC. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:46, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

And is now a Featured Article. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:42, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Request Article for Shadai Stallion Station

Hi there. I have been expanding the article on Shiraoi, Hokkaidō and came across mention of Shadai Stallion Station. I was able to add some information about the horse breeder, such as their purchase of War Emblem (for $17 million). What is missing is an article about the horse breeder itself. From what little I have found is that they are world famous, but I do not feel I am able to judge that. I was hoping that someone with a stronger interst in thoroughbred racing might take up interst in this topic and at least write a short article. Any takers? imars (talk) 21:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Article created on June 2, 2009. Froggerlaura (talk) 03:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] New Category

I noticed some horses have been given the Category:Eclipse Award winners which actually did not come into effect untuil 1971. I therefore created a simple new Category:American Champion racehorses to cover all winners prior to that date. I gave it the single name so that like the Eclipse Award category it covers all irrespective of their class. Does everyone agree? Brett Josephson (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 2184 articles are assigned to this project, of which 237, or 10.9%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Stub templates

Hi all -

Hope you don't mind, but I've just updated your project's template page (Wikipedia:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing/Templates) to show all the different stub templates relating to horse racing. Only the general one was listed on the page, whereas there are separate stub templates for races, racehorses, biographies, and two new ones for venues. Grutness...wha? 07:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image needs replacement - Frankie Dettori

Hello all...

An image used in the article, specifically Image:Frankie.jpg, has a little bit of a licensing issue. The image was uploaded back when the rules around image uploading were less restrictive. It is presumed that the uploader was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard. As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article. If anyone has an image that can replace this, or can go take one and upload it, it would be best.

You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 00:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Racing colours template

We have Association Football templates, baseball templates and basketball templates. Does any wiki expert think he/she can come up with a racing colours template? This can then be used on pages relating to specific owners horses and templates for specific races i.e. Kentucky/Epsom Derbies, Grand National etc. If you come up with something give me a shout on my talk page as I'd love to sandbox it on a Grand National race template idea Captainbeecher (talk) 10:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Epsom Gold Cup

The Epsom Gold Cup appears to have been an important race. Is it defunct or was the name changed? If anyone has information on this please add. Thanx. Handicapper (talk) 14:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Epsom Gold Cup was the former title of the race now known as Coronation Cup (for 4yo+ during Derby Meeting). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.42.121.109 (talk) 11:37, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gainsborough 1918 Derby winner

There are some inaccuracies in this article. Lady Jane Douglas was not the first woman to breed a classic winner, Volodyovski the winner of the 1901 Derby was also bred by a woman and Gainsborough did not win the Epsom Derby he won a war time substitute Derby run at Newmarket and he also won the substitute St Leger known as the September Stakes also run at Newmarket. Headturner (talk) 09:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] American Derby

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Derby

The racing times given indicate that between 1966 and 1976 this race was not run over 1 mile but over a wider distance (f. e. 1 1/8 mile). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.42.121.109 (talk) 11:44, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ray Hunt

I think Ray Hunt (died on March 12th) may have been involved more in QH than TB racing, but would anyone here like to contribute to his article? --Una Smith (talk) 17:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Almutawakel

Hi All! Sullyman15 here - big fan of horse racing! I have just added a wiki page for Almutawakel. I felt it was good to add it since he was the only winner of the Dubai World Cup to not have a page. I think there are plenty of hits on the internet to justify there being one. If there are any suggestions on how I can improve the article, please let me know. I'll be adding some more related articles in the future and hope that I can make some good contributions to the project. If you would like any help on racing stuff or have any comments please contact me on my "help" page. Sullyman15 (talk) 09:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Advice on an editor sought

In the last few weeks a New Zealand editor (User:Wallie) started making edits to the article on Phar Lap. His edits have been challenged, which has resulted in an edit war and the article has been protected for a few days. The article lead contains the following references to New Zealand - foaled in NZ ( 2 mentions), the precise place of his foaling , the fact that he was a half brother to a NZ horse Nightmarch and the place in NZ where he was purchased. All these mentions in the lead paragraph are to a horse who NEVER raced in New Zealand, but had 50 race starts in Australia and won 36, most of them major races on the Australian turf. Not a mention of any of this is in the article lead. Subsequent to User:Wallie edits to Phar Lap, he has embarked on a campaign of editing Australian horse racing articles to insert the words New Zealand (+ flag icons) into them, and remove or question, any reference to Australia. He has also created and made edits to info boxes using "all caps" for horse names. Is there a Wiki policy on the use of "All Caps" in articles? I am unable at present to check all of his edits and I would appreciate some help and also opinions on the Phar Lap article at Talk:Phar Lap. Thanks. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 22:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Capitals are covered under Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters). I'll take at look at PL, not sure how much help I can be, I don't know much about the horse, honestly. (My major interest in Thoroughbreds is in how they influenced Quarter Horses...) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:35, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Champion jockey

I've turned the Champion Jockey article into a dab (from a redirect), as there are (at least) 2 British species of CJ, and we have a further article about an (informal) US CJ. Further, some googling of Wikipedia finds (in tangent mentions) several other CJ awards in other horse racing circuits (non-exhaustive list at Talk:Champion Jockey). Perhaps we should have articles about these other CJ awards, which might in turn help us flesh out our coverage of perhaps neglected but nevertheless notable riders. 87.115.130.38 (talk) 00:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] merge American Classic Races and United States Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing??

See also: Talk:United States Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing#Merger proposal

These two pages are almost identical and cover the same ground. Plus, nobody under age 80 calls these things "American Classic Races" anyways-- that was a usage that was proposed a number of years back and was never accepted by the public, which calls these races the "Triple Crown". I would also propose that we get rid of this terminology on individual horse pages, such as Omaha (horse) and Secretariat in favor of "Triple Crown Races". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.37.74 (talk) 21:31, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually, they are referred to the Classics quite frequently throughout various newspapers and magazines. The reason they are separate, is that the Triple Crown desination only applies to 1919 and later. The term "Triple Crown" was only coined in the 1930s and it wasn't until 1948 that racing authorities recognized Sir Barton the first TC winner. Handicapper (talk) 14:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Doing the article for Personality (horse), I just came across an example of a Thoroughbred Times reference to "classic" Hirsch Jacobs never had a classic winner. Handicapper (talk) 20:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
The term "classics" occasionally gets used (although Daily Racing Form writer Joe Hirsch used that word to describe the Coaching Club American Oaks, and the Breeders' Cup's marquee event is called the "Classic"), but never "American Classic Races". It's always the Triple Crown. As for the fact that the Triple Crown being only coined in the 1930's, it's also retroactive, as it gets applied to Sir Barton's sweep of the series in 1919. The reality is that the Derby wasn't really that important a race anyway until Matt Winn promoted it, so it's probably wrong to be using any particularly grandiose adjective to describe early winners of these three races. But there's no reason to have a page for an, at best, minor term like "American Classic Races" to describe the exact same thing that everyone calls the Triple Crown much more frequently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.37.74 (talk) 23:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Reply re American Classic Races

With all due respect, the issue here appears to be someone's opinion that was not very well researched.

Here are other examples: (Want more? There are hundreds on the Internet alone)

Here, the 1918 race is being referred to as an American Classic:

However, the most prominent is this 700 page book which examines bloodlines from 1914-2002:

In its introduction to American Classic Pedigrees, Eclipse Press says:

  • Winning a Triple Crown race -- the Kentucky Derby, Preakness, and Belmont Stakes -- is the ultimate goal for Thoroughbred owners and breeders. These races are considered "Classics" for their challenging nature and prestige, and only the cream of the horse crop attempt all three. Owners and breeders have long puzzled over the pedigrees of the Classic winners, trying to find the key to the same success.

- Handicapper (talk) 13:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I think the thing to check out is if Classic doesn't include more than just the Triple Crown. Is it used in the US for any OTHER races than just the Triple Crown? Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
1. The key here is frequency of use. For every time someone uses "American Classic Race", 1000 people must say "Triple Crown Race". And they are synonymous. So why the separate Wikipedia page. According to yahoo, "American Classic Race" gets 2200 hits, and "Triple Crown Race" gets 125,000. That suggests that people are over 60 times more likely to say "Triple Crown Race" than "American Classic Race". And that count is probably overly favorable to "American Classic Race" due to the existence of the Wikipedia page that skews results.
2. Further, indeed, nobody knows what a "classic" is? Is the CCA Oaks a classic? Did it used to be one but isn't now? What about the Breeders' Cup Classic?
3. This term adds NOTHING. All it does is confuse people. And there's no need to use the confusing term when everyone knows the non-confusing term "Triple Crown race" and uses it anyways.
4. I therefore don't understand why the attachment to "American Classic Race". Why use a less common, vague, confusing, duplicative, and unnecessary term and devote a big Wikipedia page to it? Let's just get rid of it.66.92.37.74 (talk) 00:38, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Just create a redirect from "American Classic Races" to "United States Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing". Aubergine (talk) 01:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The merge has been open for three weeks on the article talk page in question, and there seems to be more in favor of merging than not, so I've now closed the merge discussion. There's no reason why you can't continue to use American Classic Races as a term as the reader will automatically reach the content at the Triple Crown page. If you find other races that are Classics, but not in the Triple Crown, it's an easy task to change a redirect to an article and use summary style so that content isn't duplicated. To reiterate, a merger doesn't mean that "American Classic Races" isn't a valid term to use (it just means the content on both pages was the same, and "Triple Crown" is the name the average person would use, per WP:COMMONAME). Hippopotamus (talk) 02:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Breeding suffix

Before this gets too far could I ask you to stop inserting the breeding suffix into the article lede. If you want to make this a racing guideline you should take it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing and get a consensus view. Wikipedia is not the Australian Stud Book and is not reqired to follow their rules. I think the suffix will confuse members of the public who do not understand the breeding industry. I have no objection to using the suffix in the pedigree section. I checked out a random sample of 100 racehorse bred in America, Ireland and France and not one had the suffix in the lede. Thanks. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 07:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

No, this is not the ASB, but this is the standard format for the media listing of race fields, breeding and sales catalogues etc, especially in AUS and NZ where it is required that the country of foaling is added as a suffix, after the animal leaves the country of its birth. Cgoodwin (talk) 07:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't think so. From my experience the format varies across the media. There is no point in including the suffix if in the next sentence you repeat that information. It is unnecessarily pedantic, and confusing. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 20:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
No, it is far more confusing when editors write things such as: "some of Australia's great sporting icons such as Phar Lap, Tulloch, Bernborough, Kingston Town, Northerly and Makybe Diva" as it appeared in Thoroughbred racing in Australia ignoring the fact that most of these horses bred overseas and without any reference to being imported horses.[1]

[2]Cgoodwin (talk) 22:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Nope, still can't follow your reasoning. Could you please explain in exactly what way it is confusing. Thanks. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 23:17, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Quite simply "Makybe Diva (GB)" has had her name registered as such and no mention is made of her or the other horses' importation. If you need more refs as to her correct name I can provide plenty. PS, I am Aus would rather see the big cups go to OZ horses but these articles should be correct. Cgoodwin (talk) 23:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I still don't follow. Bob Hope is an iconic American entertainer. Is that confusing?
There is need to provide references as to Makybe Diva's correct name. From my experience her correct name is indeed "Makybe Diva". I think you are confused. The Australian Stud Book serves a specific purpose, and as such it has certain conventions. That does not mean they should apply elsewhere. It's okay for you to begin the Makybe Diva article "Makybe Diva(GB)" instead of "Makybe Diva (foaled 1999 in Great Britain)", it's no big deal in my opinion. I just can't see the point of it. The article is equally correct either way. Ernest the Sheep (talk) 00:09, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
I changed Makybe Diva to the format that has been in use since this project was started. And, after hundreds of horses have had articles created based on that presentation, it is unacceptable for anyone to come along and just change one or two to some new formula they suddenly like. If such change is made, then someones else will justifiably change some other part of the article and we wind up with a mess. There is a reason for uniformity. And, every article has the birth country referenced twice at a minimum: on the introductory birth line if living, in the racebox and in the Category designation. Handicapper (talk) 14:45, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
This is the registered name of this mare and the suffix constitutes part of that name and has done so since she landed in Australia. See also the 1,930 google hits for same full name.Cgoodwin (talk) 05:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The name of the article is Makybe Diva not Makybe Diva (GB). The country of foaling is clearly stated in the info box. It does not need to be also shown in the info box title. And the recent edit to the info box title of Super Impose will bewilder anyone without a great knowledge of Thoroughbred breeding. I think we should bear in mind that the majority of people who refer to horse racing articles on Wikipedia will be casual enquirers with little knowedge of the breeding side of the racing industry. We should be careful that we do not end up with encyclopedia articles which are slanted to a specialised breeding industry. Incidentally, a google search on "Makybe Diva", without the suffix, produced 89,000 hits. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 08:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Horse bio notability

Someone raised the issue on my Talk page but did not give an example.

Horses
I'm not ragging on it or anything, but do you have a serious explanation as to how you justify the notability of non-famous race horses, some of which seem to have been dead for decades? If these were people then there wouldn't be even close to enough justification to rationalize notability, so I just personally don't see how it works here? I'm not saying this to propose deletion or something, I'm just wondering if you have a response. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 15:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Earnings

I am confused by the earnings that have been included for various horses with some having an (equivalent) value posted. Surely this will be misleading in a few years as new horse earnings are realised. It would seem to make more sense to list a horses local earnings as they stood at the time of retirement? What is the consensus agreement from the active members? Cgoodwin (talk) 01:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

there is a template {{inflation}} which can be used in addition to the original earnings amount, which automatically updates earnings for some currencies. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
This is the link - Template:Inflation. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 06:08, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Categories for discussion

For the attention of any members of this group, Category:Australian racehorses bred in New Zealand and Category:New Zealand racehorses racing in Australia have been nominated for deletion.[2] Cuddy Wifter (talk) 04:20, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Article alerts and cleanup listing

Hi everyone -

I have just set up the templates needed for article alerts and cleanup listings to be created for the Thoroughbred racing WP. These will be available at Wikipedia:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing/Cleanup listing and Wikipedia:WikiProject Thoroughbred racing/Article alerts when they have been created. This could take several days. They will also be available as links off of the main page. Please feel free to move the templates around on the main page - I just placed them at the bottom so they would be out of the way. Please let me know if you have any questions or comments. Dana boomer (talk) 02:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


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